{The List} Wonders

[Brent]

Definitely keep small wonders, and nontech requirements, particularly the Forbidden Palace. The way for wonders to evolve further is Feats of Wonder like I hear are in CtP2, like circumnavigating the world or a continent (victory points depend on size), exploring an entire continent, sea, or the world (again depending on size). Double Edged wonders sound good.

I want Leo's Workshop to work like in Civ2.

Dams and the Great Wall should be placed on the terrain outside your cities.

[lajzar]

Between civ2 and civ3, I think civ3 had the better Leo's Workshop, except teh upgrade price should have been made lower, maybe 1/5 normal. Upgrading units whiel in the field was a bit odd.

The cool way for Leo's to work would be to release a special tech path allowing access to some of his designs as real units.

Perhaps the Great Wall wonder should allow your workers to build fort tile improvements very cheaply for a set period (or set quantity of forts).

There could be a new category of wonders - natural wonders. Not sure how best to implement these though.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by lajzar
The Manhatten Project allows nukes for everyone. Sounds pretty double edged to me already.

This should have been a small wonder. Its basically how it works in the real world.

[La Diva]

Re: {The List} Wonders

OctX, you're missing one related link for the list in your thread topper, possibly the one with the incomplete URL:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117222

[Solomwi]

I like the double-edged wonder idea, but it'll be very easy to make spending 200-1000 shields on Wonder X unthinkable, so it would have to be carefully implemented. Leo's was overpowered in Civ2, works much better, and makes more sense, now that it's only one piece of the puzzle. The only problem with a special tech path is that while you're spending time researching techs that would presumably be untradeable, you're either losing your lead or falling behind in the tech race. Remember that Leo's comes at a crucial time for the tech race. If you hold off on researching these special techs, the units may well be obsolete by the time you get them.

New wonder possibilities:

Banaue Rice Terraces - Ancient - allows irrigation on hills (weak, needs more benefit, maybe cut irrigation time or allow hills/forests/mountains to act as irrigated square for the purposes of irrigating next to it)

Channel Tunnel - Modern/Late Industrial - allows ground units to move across single tile straits without ships.

Machu Picchu - Late Ancient - allows settlement on mountains.

Also, I wouldn't mind bringing back some of the attitude/reputation wonders from Civ2 (Eiffel Tower, Statue of Liberty, Marco Polo) in some form.

[Brent]

I like the terrace, tunnel, and Machu Picchu ideas a lot.

[La Diva]

Re: Re: {The List} Wonders

Adding more Wonders, or City Improvements or Units for that matter, will require reworking the cost of nearly everything. If even only half of the suggestions from these categories are incorporated into Civ4, there won't be turns or shields enough to produce them all. Maybe that would be a good thing.

That said, I'll be happy to build more Wonders for my Culture-dominant style of play. So if Civ4 gets more Wonder-rich, here are some juicy suggestions:

Apian Way (Small Wonder): Originally Roman Empire, huge boon to trade (25-50% for every city connected by it) and unit movement along its length (4 tiles instead of three like other roads).

For those who love micromanaging, the Wonder could cost a city less to "produce," but workers would return to existing roads for an additional one or two turns per tile, resulting in a straighter road graphic or a different color. Building the AW from scratch would take 25% longer than normal roads. The benefit would be only on city-to-city connecting roads, not on every city radius tile, but it would also apply to roads to Resources and to your civ's borders in anticipation of expansion by settlements or conquest. The benefit would continue until replaced by Railroads (not the Tech but actual construction).

For those who despise micromanaging, give the option to pay more and have the work magically appear when the Wonder is produced. The entire cost would then be based upon X base plus y for so many tiles to link all cities with one road at the time of the Wonder's completion, meaning if you add more cities while in production, the cost continues to go up - but again, you dodge the microM.

The Round Table (Great): A la King Arthur, this would make representative forms of government faster to discover and to implement with shorter or nonexistent anarchy.

Lewis & Clark (SW): This would double Movement Points of all units exploring black-out tiles, except when barbarians have been uncovered, so you'd have to deal with them normally. Speed wouldn't be affected by another civ's units.

Pony Express (SW): Faster communication improves Science and Culture and would reduce corruption in far away cities on the same continent. It would also speed up building the first Road between each city. Any additional city tiles worked for roads would still take the normal time.

International Red Cross (GW): This would be a major diplomatic boost, as well as better treatment for captured units and faster healing for battle-wounded units. Recovery from disasters in your civ would be faster, and if you "dispatched" (by Diplomatic order only, not by units) assistance to other civs, again another diplomatic plus at first. After several turns (20? 30?) IRC would become worldwide without needing to dispatch assistance. This could have a Cultural benefit as well.

Hoffbrau Haus (GW?): What civ doesn't want a world famous, first class beer hall? If it's a SW, the name could be customized to a know brew of that nationality. The benefits would be Trade, Happiness, and Tourism. We might have to watch out for alcoholism, though. If we want to avoid corrupting youth, skip this one.

Labor Union (SW): Primary benefits would be [Shield Production and Happiness [/B]. If we want to get this realistic, this improves factory life initally, but this also would bring about the possibility of worker strikes, and abuse of power by union bosses after basic working conditions have improved significantly. Unrealistic wage increases (how can you justify bolt turners getting $30 an hour?) also leads to rampant inflation. Someone suggested Wonders with negative as well as positive repurcussions - this one qualifies.

Yellowstone Park (GW): (or another kind of national park, forest, or game reserve - also suggested by justjake73, Thread 107895) This would aid Happiness and Culture , minimally reduce pollution, and slightly speed up production of ecology-related City Improvements.

Madison Avenue (SW): As the chief creator of demand for non-essential goods, advertising is a double-edged innovation. One feature would be a Market Research Advisor which could help your civ produce goods with higher demand (greater market potential). Obviously for Trade benefit.

Commodity Market (SW): Have you seen those brokers in the pit? Speculations on commodity futures adds a whole new layer of economic benefit. This could be influenced by added production variables, such as drought, flooding, mad cow disease, etc. Ditto for Trade benefit.

Insurance Commission (SW): Available mid-IndAge or later, a per-turn per-city premium would repay most losses from natural disasters and some other possible circumstances. Depending on how this is structured, you might want to insure only the most at-risk cities, like those near volcanos, in mountains, or on coasts or floodplains.

Sotheby's (Northeby's?) (GW): The Luxury quotient skyrockets, since it means you have lots of prillionaires who want to pay outrageous prices. But it might affect your diplomatic relations with less fortunate civs, so increased charitable outreach would be expected.

Peace Corps (GW?): This could help counteract the negative international effects of Sotheby's. If you don't build Sotheby's, it would simply improve Diplomacy with the underdog nations who are often the least friendly because of their jealousy - oh yes, they may smile at you in Diplomatic sessions, but only because they know they're severely overpowered.

Mickey's Park (GW): There's only one Disney, but his vision has caused millions of people to celebrate childhood dreams for 50 years, so it's worth inclusion. This Wonder would be a major Happiness boost and boon for Tourism and Trade . Firaxis would need to consider renaming to avoid copyright hassles.

Environmental Protection Agency (SW): This would aid in the battle against early pollution by creating it in the last IndAge when things start to get out of hand. Once built, this wonder would reduce the price of other pollution control improvements by 10-20%, and cleanup of outbreaks would take 50% less time. Also, maintenance costs for factories and manufacturing plants would increase because of more stringent EPA guidelines, so you have to decide if you want to make things fast but dirty or slow but clean.

Ecumenical Conference (GW?): If the suggested multi-faith feature is implemented, this Wonder would increase harmony between the different religions in your civ. If other civs paid a small tribute, they could benefit from the effects as well, essentially sending representatives to attend and bring back new ideas and attitudes (all AI, no micromanaging). Ecumenism could be an Advance instead. Depending on how rigid your civ's primary religion (a player-set variable), this could help or cause more unrest.

E-Bay (GW): Trade, trade, trade! The numbers would skyrocket. Might have to be called I-Bay or E-Auction to dodge copyright infringement, though they should love the free publicity.

other religious wonders : There has been discussion of expanding the Religion element of the game to include the more prominent world religions. Under that concept, if a city or civ reaches, say, 75% population of the same religion, additional improvements (basillicas, holy/miracle sites, pilgrimage destinations, retreat centers) could be available, including "Wonders" like the Vatican, Stonehenge, the Great Buddha, the Holy Mosque of Madinah, Lourdes, or the Mayan temples at Machu Pichu, depending on the religion.

[La Diva]

Wonder Issues:

I propose that when a Wonder is destroyed by war, the attacking civ's Culture quotient is severely damaged even more than the victim civ's. Because of national pride, the destroyed Wonder's Culture quotient would not disappear immediately but would dimish by half when destroyed and over time would decrease to nothing. This is fairer since a nation's memory and regard for the Wonder would perpetuate for at least a generation or two. After all, one of Civ's Wonders is the Colossus, which was destroyed more than two millennia ago.


While certainly not replaceable, the destruction of some Wonders might then allow for an alternative, like Notre Dame or Westminster Cathedral if the Sistine Chapel is leveled, or MIT or the Sorbonne in place of Newton's University or Copernicus' Observatory.


Most Great Wonders should add income from Tourism and should increase over time (better known, higher world population) as long as the civ is at peace but decrease for the duration of any war plus 5 turns. The Tourism benefit would level off, perhaps 50 turns after every civ has visited another continent, and then start to decrease to 50% of its highest amount when more than half the countries have acquired Television and/or Computers. (I certainly have less desire to visit the Pyramids or the Great Wall now that I've seen marvelous documentaries about them.)


If a Wonder is pro-national pride, it might also increase Immigration requests, as well as illegal alien woes and all the other multi-cultural, multi-faith issues, assuming those suggestions are implemented in Civ4.


I think some Wonders should be Hurry-capable, to some percentage. My guess is that the non-rush feature for Wonders was instituted by those who were ticked at those of us who had enough caravans waiting in a city to pay for a whole new Wonder the turn after its Tech advance was discovered. Those of us who hate war had to find a way to gain an edge. Well, at least we can fight in C3 with culture.


The non-rush lockout is acutely painful for the Forbidden Palace - 300 turns on a distant continent sux, especially when the city is generating 10-15 shields per turn. How about a reduction to 50% corruption if you garrison two military units per citizen? This should be in addition to being able to send support via caravan to finish the job more quickly.

[Brent]

Lewis & Clark and Pony Express sound good.

[La Diva]

Re: Re: {The List} Wonders

Wonder-related concerns:

Production salvage : When another civ completes a Wonder two turns before you would have, you're stuck with a ton of wasted shields. There should be some moderate recovery provision, with reservations.

.. Say you're working on Smith's Trading Company and a civ beats you to it. You should be able to turn 40% of your amassed shields into building your bank if you don't have it, or into recouping 25% to start your hospital (still a City Imp but not related to STC), but salvaging only 10% toward buying units. I think that would be fairly realistic.

.. The old concept of losing shields when switching production categories was dropped in Civ III, and I'm glad. But sticking your neck out for a Wonder requires a greater commitment. Being able to recover all the costs isn't logical - chances are you're so close to finishing by the time another civ gets it, whatever you switch to costs so much less, you forfeit a small fortune anyway. (In every Civ3 game, I've built all but one of the Wonders before my competitors could, but I remember what it was like to suffer a huge loss. This suggestion helps mollify that.)


Spiffor has a good idea for summit/peace conferences, quoted by DarkCloud in Thread 104252. Unlike Spiffor, I think the conferences should be possible early in the game. If the concept is a part of Civ4, initiating a conference (not just attending) should then make it cheaper/faster to build diplomacy-related Wonders like the Great Wall or the UN, until you declare war on someone.

International Summits should also be able to work on:
... 1. unilateral arms reduction (which would provide additional incentive by adding a percentage of original production costs back into the treasury of each civ that agrees)
... 2. ecology/pollution concerns. This is a great place to offer help to a less advanced nation, to hire out your workers for clean-up (immediate transport there and back, don't mess with travel turns) or to build pollution reducing improvements which they pay for (can be negotiated, depending on how anxious you are for them to clean up their act and how glad they are that you want to help). Initiating this kind of action would speed up production of ecology-related Wonders, if any.
Side note: while you're there cleaning up foreign lands, you get full visibility of alien territory - great espionage tool if used delicately.


After a big war, it's typical for earth civs to erect memorials/monuments. They help to heal attitudes, and they become tourist attractions. AI would generate a pop-up based on an equation of certain war criteria that were met or exceeded. These would essentially become like Small Wonders but could on rare occasions be repeatable in another city in the same civ. Depending on war weariness that wasn't counteracted in other ways before the end of the war, plus any spoils of war (captured cities, techs, gold, resources, workers, etc.), the cost could vary. This would be a great place to stray from the non-rush Wonder rule, since other cities could send caravans to contribute up to 75% of the production cost, thereby raising funds nationally rather than one city paying the whole tab.


We need a Hot-Key for Civilopedia! Mouse/menu is a slow nuisance. We also need either access to C'pedia while in other screens (to check unit specs, Wonder benefits, terrain details, etc.) or the ability to right-click into a specific item in a C'pedia category from a screen where it isn't currently possible (city screen and diplomacy especially).


Want a really interesting variable for the game? Give AI the power to randomly "give birth" to various archetypal persons from history and/or literature, without regard to that person's earthly nationality, primarily folks who were never heads of state.

See what happens when gradually people like these emerge within the fabric of the game:
- Einstein to give a quantum leap to his civ's Scientific achievements;
- Buddha to sway a culture toward pacifism;
- Edison to speed Technical/Industrical accomplishments;
- Alexander the Great to spur forced expansion;
- Albert Schweitzer to further charitable outreach;
- Osama bin Laden to become an ethnic cleansing warmonger;
- Louis Pasteur to boost medical advances and slow population loss to disease;
- Randolph Hearst to amplify communications;
- Rembrandt to spark cultural fervor;
- Hugh Hefner to jeopardize a civ's Culture/Religion ratings;
- Florence Nightingale to aid medicine and civ outreach (diplomacy);
- Billy Graham to revitalize his civ's Religion/Culture quotient, as well as firing up all of that faith worldwide;
- Miss Marple to increase the effectiveness of the police;
- Ray Kroc to introduce franchising;
- Elvis Presley to shift Culture in a different direction;
- Donald Trump for his entrepreneurial expertise;
- Teddy Roosevelt to foster conservation.

.. There could be many more through the millennia, and the traits could be tweaked - but you get the idea. Firaxis might have to stay with deceased people or great characters from fiction to avoid royalty/copyright issues, or modify names (Ray Kroc = Ray Pottery - yeah, I know he's dead, just an example). The alternative would be to create more Wonders based on these folks' far-reaching influence.

[Japher]

SW: Sky City - superduper big skyscraper that can accomidate many many people allowing this one city to increase in size by 6 above any limitation causing an increase in all key factors including pollution, drain on food... Must have hospital to build.

[La Diva]

Re: Re: {The List} Wonders

Comments on other posts:

Originally posted by Jamski, Thread 111317
I don't see why most wonders like that couldn't be built in the same way as the spaceship - you need all the components.

Originally posted by Margim, Thread 111317
a number of cities contributing to wonder production would be a 'divert' function that allows a city to send its shields directly (with a small percentage carved off) to a wonder building city that is connected via trade route. It'd be a decent compromise, I think.

Some kind of city assistance is often needed, I agree. Wonder production takes so long, a city's pop stagnates at 6 or 12, with no way to grow to increase production. You should be able to have another city build the aqueduct or hospital and "ship it," or assign workers and other cities' shields to build the other Imps, or otherwise send funds (via caravan, voluntary city contributions or specialized tax) to speed up completion of the Wonder. This speed-up option might be blocked until city pop or unhappiness reaches critical mass. - a very "decent compromise," I agree.

Originally posted by lajzar, Thread 111317
One thing that should be introduced is a maximum number of wonders per city. Perhaps a max of 1 per complete 5 population units (you don't lose wonders if your population drops though, unless the city is razed), and a rest of 20 turns between consecutive wonder projects in the same city.

Boo! If AI plants me in a lousy corner of the planet, where I have "healthy" shield production for only two cities, I shouldn't have to stop building Wonders because each city has, say 5. Or if I have to grow my city to 15 before I can build the Sistine Chapel because this city already has the Pyramids and the Great Library, not only will my citizens be too crowded and too unhappy to let me build it, I'll have to wait until I can research and build a hospital to start it. No, that's a really unfair idea, IMO.

Originally posted by LzPrst, Thread 111317
you end up with the city with the most production building all the wonders. its just insane, you get "wonder clustering" which IMO shouldnt happen. I think its better my way cause then a civ located in "unproductive" terrain will at least have a chance at getting some wonders by specializing in other areas.

Civ3 has a Cultural Victory proviso for a single city reaching 200,000 Culture Points, which can happen only if that city has several wonders or the game continues to 2100 or after (though AI doesn't keep score after 2100, right?). I doubt that many players or AI civs opt for this style of play, since maintaining a happy, healthy city requires more than Wonders.
.. As for having a city with lower shield production building a Wonder, you have to factor in the likelihood that another civ with higher production will complete the Wonder before you do - not a smart choice. AI setting this kind of criteria isn't helpful, unless it's an Advisor that pops up to suggest to the novice player the Wonder might be more successfully produced in another city.

Originally posted by Richard I Thread 111317
I would like ALL wonders to be small wonders, so that you can build every wonder when it suits you. This would be more realistic since there ARE in fact lots of pyramides, great walls, oracle-temples, great palaces etc. in the world. Some wonders have to be renamed, though. Hoover Dam would become Great Dam, Shakespeare Theatre - National Theatre, and so on.

Originally posted by LzPrst, Thread 111317
you could build 3 pyramids total, so that 3 different civs could have them

Another interesting idea. If multiples of certain Great Wonders are incorporated into Civ4, the first to build one gets greater benefit in Culture and Tourism than the copycats; other specialized benefits would be identical, like increased sea movement and safety for Great Lighthouses or granaries in every city for Pyramids.
... By the way, while I can understand a minor tie between granaries and pyramids, based on Old Testament Joseph storing grain in Egypt to get through the coming drought years, I think the connection is rather weak. Since the pyramids were simply huge tombs, this Wonder benefit has always mystified me. Nevertheless, I'm glad to eliminate the granary cost for all my cities.

Originally posted by ???, Thread ???
Wonders and cathedrals should produce lots of culture when they are built, and their influence should gradually decrease with time, not increase.

The idea has merit for some Wonders if it's tied to the Tourism vs. Communications benefit I outlined above in my 13:19 post. But only atheistic civs should lose Culture points on religious buildings, Wonders included, and then only if the city does not continue to foster and improve the culture line, which means that more culture boosters need to be included in the City Improvements list, based on other advancements - perhaps add Symphony Orchestra, Ballet Company, Zoo, Museum/Art Gallery, City Park, Sports Arena, Lake Resort, Newspaper, PBS (BBC) Station, etc.

Originally posted by ???, Thread ???
Pyramids could have 10 culture in 1 or 2 scale but by the time it got to time period 10 scale it might only have 4 culture. The Cathedral being built in 4 scale could have 6 culture but by 10 scale it might only have 1 or 2 culture.

This leads to a more complex theory, since the pyramids are important now for historical reasons but not for spiritual ones. For many millions of people, the importance/influence of religious buildings (and the reason for them) has not dimished in this Modern Age. But if you insist on revision, then the ability to build Evangelists or trigger Revivals (yes, they do occur, even in highly advanced societies) could infuse a Cathedral's cultural influence once again.
.. The importance and cultural influence of many kinds of Wonders improved dramatically as civs became more globally aware, so that other cultures came to marvel at the accomplishment. The importance and influence of many of these has decreased just as dramatically since the introduction of worldwide instant communications. So it makes sense to increase a wonder's Culture number as more countries become more mobile, then level off, following the example of my Tourism vs. Communications model in my 13:19 post above.

Originally posted by ixnay, Thread 117222
I would like to see more wonder-like things based on achievments in the game.

For example, how about rather than having a city build the Transcontinental Railroad, the game recognizes the furthest 2 cities you have apart on your largest continent, and by connecting those 2 cities by rail gives you a notice that you've completed the Transcontinental Railroad and you get a commerce/happiness boost for a period of time?

Originally posted by Solomwi, Thread 117222
same thing with Magellan's Voyage, ixnay. Whether it would be the first civ to send a ship all the way across the map or the first to have a "belt" uncovered on its map is up for debate, but I like the general idea.

Originally posted by DarkCloud, Thread 106609
I suggest that we use them as "Research initiatives" that work like bonus wonders, etc., or as UN initiatives for some of the more recent ones (such as the Olympics, etc.)

While I don't have a problem with the current system, I really like the pure elegance and simplicity of ixnay's and Solumwi's thinking for intangible Bonus Wonders, working like mini-Golden Ages. A different alternative for intangible Wonders could be another tax slider on the Domestic Advisor (F1) screen to pay for them.

.. If the idea of Bonus Wonders catches on, then in addition to the Olympics, these could also be added:
. . . Nobel Prizes
. . . Entertainment awards (Oscars, Emmys, Grammys, Tonys, etc.)
. . . Pulitzer Prizes
Another layer of perqs, probably not in the Wonder league, might be:
.. .. .. British Open Golf Tournament
.. .. .. Cannes Film Festival
.. .. .. World Cup
.. .. .. Super Bowl might be fun, but it's not global
.. .. .. Miss Universe Pageant
.. .. .. Mardi Gras (or Rio's Carnivale)
.. .. .. Running of the Bulls in Pamplona, Spain
.. .. .. Barnum & Bailey, Ringling Brothers Circus

.. I have no clue how to implement these ideas, but these forums are for thinking outside the box, right?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
What about double-edged wonders?
Something that will give you a bonus in one area but a penalty in another?

It's called "shield cost".

[La Diva]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
What about double-edged wonders?
Something that will give you a bonus in one area but a penalty in another?

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

It's called "shield cost".

Shield cost is only in production, since there's no maintenance cost.

There's already some double-edgedness in that the more of the wonders you produce, therefore the more you outstrip the tech, culture, and happiness of every other civ, the more angry they get, especially if you aren't giving away some of your hard earned information for free.

[La Diva]

Others have talked about the adding Olympics to Civ4. Here's a possible implementation:

Diplomatic AI would choose cities to host from time to time, depending on peace conditions. The civ could decline the invitation if its budget is too tight. Financial benefit could be huge, though.

Each civ can decide whether to participate and how many citizens to send. Costs for training will be presumed to be by voluntary citizen contribution, so the govt doesn't have to mess with it. We'll ignore earth history and the strong govt subsidizing by Communist Bloc countries during the Cold War.

This could be a Wonder, but then the host city wouldn't move, and Tourism and Culture benefits would be added to civ totals only every x number of turns. If 25% or more of the game's civs are at war when the "benefit turn" comes, the benefits are cut in half; if the host civ is at war, there are no benefits at all.